Gorean Relationships

TPE = total power exchange. An acronym for 24/7 D/s relationships.

The Gorean stuff is a little touchy. Personally, it appeals to me because of the fantasy (as in the genre sense, not as in "a fantasy") and ritual aspects. It gives a pre-defined set of guidelines, positions, traditions, etc. that one can use as a guide when forming one's own M/s relationship.

On Gor, your other two questions would be met with a laugh. That would be like saying "but what if your car doesn't feel like being your car anymore?" A slave is property. On Gor she can be treated however the men decide, even if that means being thrown into a pit of wild animals. Keep in mind that although it is frequently made clear in the books that this can be done to a slave, I have never read it (in, um, 18 books so far I think) happening. It is a means of control, and a simple fact.

But who follow a Gorean lifestyle on Earth take it to different levels. Some treat the books as law, other than condoning murder I suppose. We prefer to draw on traditions and philosophies of the books without going to far. In the other thread, Blaze mentioned a lot of factors that are at the very core of why we do this... I am always pushed to be made into the best possible human being I can be. I am cherished, loved, and treasured. I am owned, and I am therefore made free to be who I am. I take the greatest joy in expressing myself and being as pleasing as possible.

I know that if I were to refuse my Master's order without a seriously convincing explanation, no matter how small or big, I could be simply tossed out. I decided to accept this in my life. It is terrifying and freeing at the same time. I won't get into personal motivations for this (unless prodded :)), but it is an extremely fulfilling relationship and difficult to understand without experiencing.

I feel bad that Blaze is getting a bit dragged into this here because I know that he doesn't really agree with or follow any Gorean practices. But there are similarities. But we are not abused or mistreated in any way. If anything, it is often playful. But at the heart of it all, I am a slave to my Master for life. It is a bond I hold more sacred than I would marriage. In my mind, marriage is the legal and societal way of confirming my ownership. It would add an accepted legal realm to our relationship.

Even though being a slave is an extremely significant part of who I am as a human being, I don't tend to push it out in the open that much. It is here on the site (although in dire need of updating), but I find it more useful when people get to know me a bit before they learn about that part. It is much easier to understand when met with existing knowledge of who I am.

I think I am starting to ramble so I will stop here. I don't often get the chance to really get into issues here on the forum (yay end of semester!) and I am happy to talk about my views of what this whole Gor thing is about :)[/b]

Here’s some parts of a conversation I had with someone else (there’s also a link at the bottom to an essay that says it really well):

Me: but he also knows me and my limits. he doesn't want to break me.

Her: so, you have limits?

Me: I do.

Her: So you're not REALLY a slave, more like... a ... servant?

Me: well...the limits that a slave has aren't really limits that prevent a Master from doing things...it's just the line that, once crossed, can't be undone. a line where there would be a change in the slave.

Her: But say you want to terminate the agreement, can you?

Me: oh yes, definitely. It is a consentual slavery. On Gor, of course, that's not the case.

Her: So, it's more like the concept of "servitude" where you're not really forced? LIke, when I think slave, I think of people that do what they're told, or they're killed. When I think servant, I think people that do what they're told or they're fired.

Me: in the strictest definition, I'm not being forced.

Her: Sorry I'm not trying to be anal just like understand

Me: Even in a more relaxed definition, I'm not being forced. I enjoy serving him.

Her: Yeah, so it's more of a servant thingie... Not like, in the sense of the word itself, but concept

Me: Now...if I displease him, I will be punished. It's not like I can simply walk out the door and not come back until he decides not to punish me.

Her: But what if you didn't like the punishment?

Me: I will, unfailingly, not like the punishment.

Her: Like what if he says "your punishment is licking my foot" and you're all "nah i dont wanna do that" and its over?

Me: if I choose not to act like a slave, then he can choose not to be my Master. and *that* would be awful.

Her: Like say the punishment is REALLY severe... for example, can you say "No I don't want to do that punishment" That just ends the relationship? but you have the choice not to do the punishment right?

Me: it wouldn't end the relationship. Master and I need each other. We're in love, and we're best friends. But if I decided to stop being his slave, I would no longer be his slave. And that would be...bad. technically I have a choice. technically I also don't have a choice. if I tell him "no punishing me", he tells me "okay then, no Master for you", which is a worse punishment.

Her: Hm.
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Her: Steph seems so independant too.

Me: well, independence and slavery don't necessarily preclude one another

Her: Well what if your master said "Stop camming"

Me: I would do so. I'd ask why, and he'd tell me if he wanted to.

Her: Well, what if he said "Stop writing" or "Don't eat for 4 days"

Me: it's the same deal...I'd ask why, and he'd either tell me or not. it's not quite as dire as that, though.

Her: So how are you independant? If your independance hinges on someone else?

Me: how is Steph independent? You know her to be. And yet you just found out that she's a slave.

Her: But like, only as independant as you're allowed to be.

Me: I am...allowed and encouraged to be the person I am. All of me. Master doesn't want to overshadow me at all.

Her: But if he wanted to, he could?

Me: yes. but that would generally be the mark of a bad Master.

Her: So strange.

Me: and being a consentual slave....I wouldn't tolerate a bad Master. bad Masters can be referred to as bullies.
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Her: But women can be masters as well, right? and men slaves?

Me: free women, on Gor, are generally referred to as ‘Mistress’ by slaves

Her: I see. That I could do :)

Me: and yes, there are free people and slaves of both genders in the books. And on earth, there's even more of the FemDom, male-slave situation.
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Her: I'm just working on trying to have a regular old boring relationship, I can't even do that, nevermind with all these rules being in place

Me: well, I wouldn't expect anything else.
It's silly to rush into BDSM relationships. And sometimes dangerous. A *lot* of trust is involved, assuming a person is even interested. Master and I had been going out for 4.5 years before even talking about the slavery thing.

Anyway, then we got talking about sandwiches and it naturally progressed into Douglas Adams. So here’s a link:

http://www.cauldronfarm.com/baphomet/onbeingowned.html

(btw, the Raven referred to in this essay is a different Raven. Most people would have known that, I know. But for those who were tired...maybe it would have been confusing.)

Oh, here’s another one:

http://www.gor-on-earth.com/explaining.htm

Also, I'm making an assumption here that the girl I was talking with wouldn't mind me posting this...if that's wrong, I hope she forgives me and messages me and I'll get rid of it right quick!

I know it's long, but I seriously recommend reading this:

This is from a conversation I had with a male TPE slave about 6 months ago, where I asked him basically the same questions as HB. It is not a Gorean relationship, but I think that the questions still apply. Obviously, the quoted text (the ones with the "greater than" sign) are my questions, and the rest are his answers. The bold/italicized text are comments that I just added to clarify anything.

---

06/29 @ 21:01
>Hi,

Hi Erica

>I have looked at your IAM page before, and checked your
>diary sporadically, and I couldn't help but to have some
>questions for you regarding lifestyle BDSM (at the time, I wasn't aware of the term TPE, so I just said "lifestyle BDSM"). Before I go on,
>I would like to make it clear that I am only asking because
>this type of relationship is something that I have never
>been personally exposed to, not because I think it is wrong,
>strange, or unhealthy. On the contrary, provided that it is
>consentual, I think it is great that two adults would be so
>in touch with their desires and not afraid to indulge. I am
>asking out of curiosity, not criticism.

I love to answer questions! If I'm not clear in my answers below, please let me know and I'll clarify.

You've asked me some very intelligent questions in the past, I recall

>Anyway, from what (little) I have read in your diary, it
>seems as though you and Diosa (his Domme) have a really great
>relationship. I don't mean in regards to BDSM, but in terms
>of a relationship where two people love, respect, and enjoy
>one another.

Thank goodness, our relationship is now at that point. It took years of fighting, therapy, and learning to communicate - a lot of very hard work - but at this point things are better than they've ever been.

>I imagine that for you to engage in heavy CBT (cock and ball torture)
>and other similar forms of play, you must have an incredibly
>deep trust for her.

Yes I do.

>I myself have been in a wonderful
>relationship with a man for about 1.5 years, and while we do
>not engage in a "lifestyle" master/slave relationship, we do
>enjoy D&S in the bedroom quite a bit. Finding someone who I
>know respects me almost unconditionally has made it possible
>for me to indulge my submissive tendencies without fear or
>insecurity, resulting in an immensly gratifying sex life.
>But, out of the bedroom our roles are that of equals.

That's great and I'm very happy to hear it

>My question is, how are you able to maintain a
>girlfriend/boyfriend relationship simulataneously with a
>master/slave one?

That is not an easy question to answer, but I'll do my best.

No matter what else we do, we are fundamentally *partners* and as such are equals. The master/slave role is a very important part of our lives, but we approach it as two equals exchanging power willingly. As you can imagine, this requires a LOT of negotiation and communication. We've been together long enough, though, that I can usually tell what she wants, and she is the same with me. But above all, we still have to communicate our needs, what's working, and what's not working.

Another thing is how we have defined "slave". When we say I am a slave, we don't mean, say, the sharecropper and his African-American slave, where one wields ALL the power, and the other none - but rather the classical Greek farmer and HIS slave. Slaves in this time period were treated more like equals, more like "part of the family." The master had power, but generally wielded it through suggestion and tact rather than by an iron fist.

>How does it affect the inevitable
>squabbles that couples find themselves in? For example, can
>you tell Diosa not to smoke cigarettes in the house, or ask
>her to do the dishes, or that you don't want to move to
>Illinois and become sustinance farmers?

Since we are partners, I have just as much say in the household as she does. The master/slave dynamic tends to come out in more *personal* ways - for example, she will tell me to pamper her for a day. Or will tell me to make her dinner. Or will sexually dominate me, etc. The household chores are divided up as fairly and equally as possible - I would definitely get resentful if I was in charge of doing everything around the house. I generally do a little more housework just because I care more about the house being messy, not because I'm the slave.

>Is it awkward to
>just watch a movie and giggle together like friends if she
>"owns" you, so to speak?

We are best friends and we do all the things best friends do together. We're just best friends who also like to play at exchanging power

>If you get mad at at her for losing
>your favorite cufflinks, can she in turn remind you that she
>is the domme, punish you for impudence, and let bygones be
>bygones?

Yes, she can and sometimes does, but generally not over things I'm really upset about, only things that don't really matter much in the long run, things I'm slightly annoyed about. If I'm upset at *her*, we always talk about it, and likewise if she's upset at me.

>Again, let me reiterate that I am not criticizing
>your relationship or lifestyle BDSM, I am just intensly
>curious. Sometimes I read BME experiences where the author
>is a sub who refers to their master as He or She (note the
>capitalization) and repeatedly makes references to the rules
>their master sets for them. It is just so hard for me to
>imagine this same person angry with their dom for forgetting
>to walk the dog, or the two of them just being goofy
>together.

I can only speak for my own relationship. Everyone's going to have their own personal dynamics. We've found equilibrium for the time being - and hopefully we'll be able to communicate and come to agreements as our relationship continues to evolve.

My sense is that any couple who can't be goofy with each other (or justifiably irked with each other, too) probably isn't going to stay a couple very long. There are exceptions, of course, but for us it just isn't possible to have the master/slave dynamic in the foreground 24/7. It's always there, of course, but it's just ONE set of roles we have with each other. And this is what we've found works best for us.

>I can understand how a lifestyle master/slave
>relationship may be appealing and feasible, but how does it
>juxtapose with a boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife
>relationship?

It's an important part of our relationship, and one I doubt that we could do without. But all the other parts of our relationship are equally as important. You don't water just one part of your garden; you water all of it or it's not going to stay healthy. This is why communication is crucial. If we don't communicate well, if we make bad assumptions about each other, problems are going to arise instantly.

>Thanks so much in advance for taking the time
>to answer this.

And thank YOU for asking! I enjoy being able to answer intelligent questions such as yours; it's a real privilege. Let me know if there's anything I can can make clearer for you.

To clarify...

There is a massive difference between Gorean slaves and your usual practitioners of BDSM lifestyles. I've read a book (whose author I'm most likely going to be writing to, as she presents a one-sided, biased, uninformed and unresearched view of the *entire* BDSM lifestyle) where Goreans are described as "fascinating and extremely frightening".

*mutters*

Here's another quote: "Women who serve as slaves to Gorean Masters utterly reject their former strength and self-sufficiency because they have always been unhappy with the hard necessities they experienced in taking care of themselves."

And this is coming from a book that claims to present an overview of the many sides of sexuality that are available to women, in a non-judgemental way. The book is basically presented in the light that Dominant-woman relationships are great and should be celebrated as an acceptable alternative lifestyle. Submissive females have betrayed their entire gender.

Having said that, Gorean philosophy is NOT like that.

Gorean slaves are full slaves. If I was to insist that Master do the dishes, he would most likely whip me. It's a silly thing to ask. If he wants to do the dishes, he will. Otherwise, I do them. He often helps me because he wants to.

Many typical BDSM relationships are seen as a voluntary wearing of "Master" and "slave" hats. There are no hats in Gorean relationships. If I was to try to be other than a slave, I would be lying in the worst way. On Gor, slaves are akin to animals. They are pets or cattle, and it is up to their Masters to determine what they do. They are obviously not *thought of* in the same way as pets or cattle, and many quotes from the books can back up that notion...I can't find the quote right now, but it essentially is one Master talking about how he knows that his slaves are intelligent, creative girls, and he often enjoys conversation and debates with them. The he goes on to say that when he is done with that, it is another pleasure to put them again to their knees.

Gorean slaves are those slaves who have given themselves over to absolute slavery - holding nothing back - for their entire life.

Gorean philosophy is that women and men are fundamentally different....political correctness be damned. Women are physically weaker than men. It is our physiology. There will always be exceptions, but they are *exceptions*. I can struggle with ALL of my strength against my Master - and I have - and not budge his arms an inch.

Gorean philosophy states that women should be women. We should be feminine. And it never occurred to me that all I wanted was just to be feminine. I *always* did. My mother did not indulge my need to be feminine at all. And I grew up starved for that femininity.
Gorean Men are Men. They do not pretend that their slaves - or even the free women - are the same as them. Free women are equal in social standing, but not the same. Men are strong. Women are weak. Put the two into a match and the man will win.

Here's the important part -- for Goreans, accepting this and embracing it within ourselves makes us happy and fulfilled. Oh, it makes me MAD to see the word "womyn". For *fuck's* sake, it's spelled WOMEN! We do *not* need a second word that cuts out "man" from "woman"....they're both from the word human!! GAH! Now that I've said that, someone will read it and insist that 'human' get another spelling, too!!!
Anyway. The point is that it is mroe important for Goreans to be be biologically correct than politically correct. Here's a quote:

Here's another:

I happen to know that there is some concern over cruelty and inequality within relationships like this. Once again, that is also brought up in the Gor novels, and it holds true in most Gorean relationships here on earth:

Gorean slaves do not choose the easy road by becoming property. Indeed, it is *much* harder to choose a path that is scorned by most people. Slaves can expect to receive very little other than contempt and negative reactions when people find out. It is a *difficult* choice to follow a path that everyone wants you to pretend isn't there. But Goreans give up lying to themselves. We can't pretend this path isn't a part of who we are.

There is probably a lot I've forgotten, so I'll probably pop a few more entries in here. Gor takes a lot of living to fully understand.

Here's something written by a non-Gorean on the subject of Gorean relationships:

http://sirsgirl.blogspot.com/goreanthoughts/

(oh...a warning...there are a couple of NSFW pictures within the text)

Miss Ambrosia, before I say anything, I want to state something that you already know, but I feel should be said in public anyway:

I have the utmost respect for you. You are a strong, intelligent, and wonderful young lady. (And you're not allowed to argue with me on that, so there. :P )

All the reasons you state in your previous post are exactly why I am not--and can never be--a Gorean master. I am unable to treat a woman as property. I am unable to assume the level of control that a 'perfect' Gorean would require. I can't even tolerate (what I consider to be) the silly convention of not capitalizing a slave's name. And I would *never* even consider taking a person's name from them (though I might peg them with a nick-name, or 'affectionate' name.)

I would be the hardest master you, personally, could ever serve.

My personal philosophy is diametrically opposed to that of Gor in so many ways that it's sheer folly to even think about discussing them.

And yet... I have no problem with people who choose to follow Gor of their own free will.

One point you brought up that I would like to comment on is regarding the author you spoke of. It has always been a source of great anger for me that "feminists" who declare that women must be free to make any choice they want, refuse to accept it when a woman freely chooses to be feminine, submissive, heterosexual, or anything else "traditional".

Freedom of choice means freedom to choose *anything*.

Well, that's perfectly alright. I see your relationship with Megan as one that is more akin to a Mentor type relationship, one based in deep respect so that the pupil seriously wants to please the Mentor and follow his guidance without any mention of pushiment or the like. If I have that wrong, please let me know. I think it's a wonderful setup. I've had mentors in my life that I have that same deep respect for and would follow any suggestion they give me.

As to the convention...well, it's not something I get personally bothered by. Too many people insist on capitalizing my name these days for me to get offended. *grin*

The convention comes from the fact that in Gorean or BDSM chat rooms, you can't see who is collared or naked, and who is clearly a free person. So the capital/noncapital tradition was adopted to prevent embarrassing misunderstandings.

It has a deep effect on me, being called ambrosia. Master calls me that name in person once in awhile, and it reduces me to a heavily-breathing mass of kneeling hormones. So there is something to it. :D

He's neither in that case.
He's a bully who likes taking advantage of those who would let him.

I'd also like to say that this thread is slowly but surely upping my post count.

:D

I wrote a good long post about my opinion, but because Blaze and ambrosia are both so goddamn good at writing, I deleted it and left this pointless message in its place.

I think the key issue here is whether or not a slave can leave.

The entire point of being a slave is to willingly surrender her control. As soon as she withdraws that submission of independence from her Master (which power never can be taken from her) then she is indeed a free girl once again.

In Gorean slaves, though, it's unlikely because 1) the choice that has been made is not based on whim, it is based on a person's very IDENTITY. The only questions that a slave is required to answer about herself is "Who will by my Master" and "What does my Master wish of me?"

A sub may have more leeway; I don't know about that.

However, the idea of a Gorean slave leaving her Master is, while technically possible, like suggesting that a fish learn to crawl, or a pig learn to fly. It just goes against their nature. There is nothing there that will allow for it. Now, that doesn't mean individual Masters cannot be left, some are insufficient for the slave's needs. At that point, ideally, the Master would himself recognize that incompatibility and sell/trade/give his slave to another Master. But have no doubt, when talking about Gorean slaves, such a person is literally incomplete without the other, complimentary side of their identity.

Bah, I'm saying absolutely nothing that hasn't been said better by Blaze or ambrosia.

On to question 3: A slave not feeling in the mood is entirely irrelevent. Question answered.

Although, I've been accused before of being too caustic and harsh for some people's tastes. A certain webcam show comes to mind.

Raven

I originally typed a whole long response, but then I figured that a picture is worth a thousand words, so I deleted the whole thing and just posted a naked picture of Grace Jones wearing boxing gloves.

But yeah. I don't like any sentence that starts with "women should". Switch that with "women are conventionally" and I'm cool with it (Steph, that's what I think you actually meant to say, but correct me if I'm wrong).

If physical strength makes a woman feel happy and comfortable in her own skin, then I'm all for it.

To bring this back on topic, a strong, athletic woman can be beautiful and even feminine, but she'd probably make a poor Gorean slave. When Grace Jones dated Dolph Lundgren, the two of them used to kickbox for fun -- not something that I can see a kajira doing with her Master. If those two had produced a son, I'd be dating him right now. Mmmmmuscles, and mmmmmmixed race. Two great tastes that taste great together.

Ya learn something new every day... :)

Anyway, my mistake, but I should probably clarify my original reasoning, as it was a very biased statement. While I consider myself a sub, I could NEVER be a Gorean or lifestyle slave for this reason: I get off on a struggle for dominance. Albeit, I like to lose. I love to be forcefully dominated in a very active way while I fight back before I submit and just let the pleasure wash over me.

So, for myself PERSONALLY, if I was to spar with my boyfriend, I'd probably see it as a struggle for dominance, only because it would please me to think of it in that light. However, I'm pretty tiny and he is a very muscular 6'1", so we play chess instead.

Anyway, I can see how this wouldn't be the case with everyone, particularly with someone who is innately a slave.

also, chess can get *very* competitive, let me tell you.

especially if it's strip-chess.